What Hyper-Preterists Don’t Want You To Know

  Hyper-Preterists often call their system “Consistent Preterism,” as they purport to hold a consistently preteristic view of Christian eschatology.  Nevertheless, what 99% of them don’t reveal is that they are inconsistently embracing a Futuristic soteriology that is no longer in effect if “this age” has ended and the “age to come” arrived.

  Let me explain.  All New Testament Scriptures are addressed to believers living in “this age.”  There is not a single verse Hyper-Preterists can cite which is directly addressed to believers living in the “age to come.”  The reason is obvious.  The purpose of the Gospel is to deliver us from this present evil age (Galatians 1: 4)   Once “this age” has ended, there is no more need for salvation.  If one should say there is, then let him answer: “Salvation from what?“  Certainly not from the law, which passed away in A.D. 70.  Nor from Satan, who was destroyed (as Hyper-Preterists say) at the same time.

   Hyper-Preterism conceals the fact that if Jesus Christ returned in A.D. 70 and all Biblical prophecy is fulfilled, there is nothing more to “deliver” anybody from.  Under their scheme, the elements of the Old Testament law (including the moral law) have been completely dissolved, thus taking away the standard of condemnation.  For “sin is transgression of the law” (1 John 3: 4); and “where no law is, there is no transgression“ (Romans 4: 15).  Hence God and mankind are no longer at enmity.  Or if they are, then on what is such enmity based? 

   Scripture teaches but one gulf between God and man, and that is sin.  Bridge that gulf, and the controversy ceases.  If death was destroyed in A.D. 70, then there is no more sin.  For “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law” (1 Cor. 15: 56).  Sin, death, and the law are all intimately connected.  Take away one, and the others fall with it.

   The consistent Preterist view holds that all salvation was perfectly consummated in A.D. 70.  Those born after A.D. 70 never needed salvation, for they were never under the Old Covenant.  This is the dirty secret that Hyper-Preterists don’t want you to know about.

   Conservative Hyper-Preterists try to get around this evidence by stating that the application of realized eschatology is now individual.  But the statement is absurd.  In order to make their Hyper-Preterism stick, they must hold that there was a “general judgment” and “general resurrection” of all men in A.D. 70.  Well, that which is universal in scope must also be universal in its effects.  Therefore, if Hyper-Preterism is true, all men must be saved.  For the individual is really part of the universal.  Therefore, the universal effects of an A.D. 70 general judgment would cover individuals living past that event.

   This universality of the parousia is verified in verses such as Rev. 21: 24, which speaks of the “nations which are saved” walking in the light of the New Jerusalem.  It is clear that a preteristic second advent would have greatly altered the relation between God and man, insomuch that whole nations were saved in A.D. 70!  This is surely much more than an individual matter, isn’t it?

   Then, too, conservative Hyper-Preterists, in pleading for an individual fulfillment of realized eschatology, destroy their own theory by a fatal inconsistency.  For some of them, to avoid the view that men are resurrected now claim that we actually receive our resurrection bodies when we die.  Such teachers affirm that the “age to come” is entered at the death of the believer.  And this of course allows the Gospel to continue past A.D. 70.

  But the proposed solution falls apart at the slightest touch.  If we enter the age to come at physical death, then we’re not in that age now.  But if we’re not in the “age to come” now, then we must still be in “this age.”  And if “this age” is still ongoing in A.D. 2008, then it couldn’t have ended in A.D. 70. 

   The need to be “saved” arises from an existence of those very conditions which Hyper-Preterists (in order to be consistent) must claim were destroyed in A.D. 70.  Since Christ’s preterist advent was universal in scope and in effect, there is no way to carry His soteriological teachings past A.D. 70, whether corporately or individually.  For those very teachings were given to address conditions which Hyper-Preterists teach (in theory, not in practice)  no longer exist.

   Either the elements of the Old Covenant age were dissolved, or they weren’t.  There is no middle-ground.  If they were, then there is no more need for ”deliverance.”  If they were not, then it is clear that we are still living in “this age,” and Christ hasn’t returned.

  But sometimes Hyper-Preterists employ an argument out of Revelation 21, which claims that in certain verses the standpoint of the Apocalypse has shifted from the time-frame of the writer (A.D. 66-67) to the “age to come.”  This argument claims that the description of those left outside the city is a prophetic foreview of conditions existing after Christ’s second coming. 

   But this theory too breaks down when we realize that the whole book is addressed to Christians living in “this age.”  Hyper-Preterists say that the invitation, “whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17) is addressed to Christians living in the “age to come.”  But what do they make of the next two verses? 

(Revelation 22: 18-19) “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.  And if any man should take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.”

  Clearly, if the invitation applies to Christians living in the “age to come,” then so do the warnings and curses.  But the curses of “this book” were (according to Hyper-Preterists) exhausted by the vial judgments of A.D. 70.  So what say ye, Hyper-Preterists?  Why are you trying to hide the fact that consistent Preterism leads to Universalism.  Having not a single Scripture which directly addresses believers in “the age to come,” can you not see what problems you create by saying that the age to come has already arrived?  Not only is the whole New Testament canon thrown out of joint, but salvation by the Gospel is nullified.

   We must keep in mind that salvation is preached to those living under the Old Covenant.  You say the Old Covenant ended in A.D. 70.  If it truly ended (and it had to, if all Bible prophecy was fulfilled 2,000 years ago) then the deliverance has been effected with such universal, worldwide, and all-encompassing results that it is impossible for anyone to still be living under the “elements.”  Only acknowledge this, and you’ll do as many others have, and embrace a consistently universalistic view.  

 But I hope you don’t.  Instead, my wish is that you repent of these perversion of Christ’s Gospel, and return to the faith that you once received–even the faith by which you claim to have been saved.  Remember thy first love.  Repent, and do the first works (Rev. 2: 4-5).  Oh, how sweet is God’s grace that leadeth one from these errors to restore his soul beside the still waters!  He can heal thee today, if thou wilt trust in Him.

   But oh, Preterist, do something soon! for there is but a small step from Hyper-Preterism to atheism, and from that to the grave. Will you take that step? or will you return to the light from which you turned aside when you accepted the false Gospel of Hyper-Preterism?  The choice is up to you.  My only business is to warn others of what the leaders of Hyper-Preterism are hiding that people may avoid the snares and pitfalls of a “consistent Preterist” view. 

26 Comments »

  Will wrote @

Brian,
Your view is a distortion of what the scriptures clearly teach.Nowhere does the Bible teach “end of time” but only time of the end.Scriptures clearly teach only two ages,the Mosaic age and the Christian age.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Clearing teach the Cristian age is never ending. Are we in he Christian age Brian?

You have to totally ignore that verse Brian for your view to be correct. No matter how hard you try Brian,there is NO SCRIPTURE supporting your warped view of a return to the land of Israel in unbelief. These two points alone destroy your cultist tainted view.

Will

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Will,

The church includes those who were saved from the Old Covenant. A consistent Hyper-Preterist would tell you that the church was perfectly finished in A.D. 70. Therefore, the souls of the completed church reign with Christ throughout eternity.

Go ask them.

Brian

  Will wrote @

Brian,
Yes Brian the church does include the OT saints.This was the promise made to them and that Jesus came to fulfill.

You say he failed and that they are still waiting in Hades.Therefore we are still under the law,all of it Brian.There is not separation of moral laws from the statutes and religious ceremonies.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

So are we under the law or was all the promises made to the OT saints fulfilled??

Another error Brian, how can you say the church is completed when scripture say it will increase forever?

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

Even In Revelation it says the gates are continually opened..Why?

Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day–and there will be no night there.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

I’m sorry Brian but your view is not supported by scripture.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Will

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Will,

These aren’t my views. They are the views of the leaders of the Hyper-Preterist movement, most of whom are Universalists. Just ask John Riffe and he’ll tell you.

Brian

  Will wrote @

Brian,
I don’t know and have never read anything from John Riffe.So i’m not sure of his views.

It’s your views that i’m challenging.

Maybe you would like it if i equated all pre-mill dispy’s to the views of David Koresh.

Your arguments are very weak Brian.Didn’t you call this “poisoning of the well” in a earlier comment?

Latter
Will

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Will,

Let’s see.. what particular views of mine are you “challenging?” I’m dying to hear this one.

Brian

  Roderick wrote @

Actually, I believe this is Brian’s best article articulating the “logical” conclusions of hyperpreterism. The true hyperpreterists are ALL universalists. The rest are trying to straddle the fence as much as they can.

  Will wrote @

Brian,
You said” Hyper-Preterism conceals the fact that if Jesus Christ returned in A.D. 70 and all Biblical prophecy is fulfilled, there is nothing more to “deliver” anybody from”.

Site the book,article or quote please.If not then your just lying.

You also said “what particular views of mine are you “challenging?”

That’s a joke right? Well at least the few readers here can see how you answered..Oh wait..you didn’t..Maybe you caught Edwardism.

On July 29, 2008 at 2:52 pm Brian Simmons Said:
“Rod the Railer” still won’t answer any of our questions.

Nice to see you and Roddy are friends again.

Yeah Brian i see you have stopped your attacks on Partial Preterism and taken DD’s profile down from the “who’s who” list.Was the he price you had to pay to be Rod’s friend again?
You guys are a hoot.Your readers should read this blog to see you 2 in action.
http://preterist.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/the-ridiculous-rantings-of-roderick/#comments

Will

  Roderick wrote @

I make one comment & you accuse poor Brian of being under my spell? Can you imagine how long Brian or I would be allowed to post on SGP? They don’t even allow prince of hyperpreterism — Virgil Vaduva to be a member there. Oh the places you’ll go.

  Will wrote @

Rod,
Earlier you said “. The true hyperpreterists are ALL universalists”.

SGP has over 170 memebrs.Name ONE that is a universalist?

Name one of the more well known full preterist that is ?And don’t name people if you can’t quote them.

How many years has Preston and Bell been full prets? Since the eighties or so.Curtis, and Frost? None of theses guys have become universalisits.

You know yourself most full preterist are Sovereign Gracers.But it looks better when you try and lump everyone in one group.

Sure there are universalist in every denomBut most are futurist.

It just shows your dishonesty Roderick.

Willy

  Roderick wrote @

Max King (considered the “founder” of modern hyperpreterism), Tim King, Virgil Vaduva, Kevin Beck, Jay Gary, Gary Amirault, David Embury (Davo), Ed Burley, Amie May, Barry Dupont, Doug Reed, Paige Marshall, Hosea Ballou, Robert Townley, & more & more (long before you ever entered the movement)

As for quotes, start here:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/u/universalism.html

You Johny-come-lately hyperpreterists know nothing of the movement. Guys like Preston & Frost would never speak too loudly against the preterist universalists — they didn’t want to offend potential market base.

  Roderick wrote @

oh & actually MOST of the original & present hyperpreterist leaders were ALL Arministic “church of Christ” guys: Max King, Tim King, Terry Hall (Virgil’s father-in-law), Larry Seigle, Don Preston, William Bell, Jack Scott, Kurt Simmons, Ed Stevens (shall I go on???) These so-called SGP even STOLE that title from Ward Fenely (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sgplist/) Leeches leeching even on each other.

Again Will, I’m sorry you have no idea about the history of the cult of which you are now a part. Maybe that is how & why you were able to be duped by it.

  Will wrote @

Rod,
Speaking of duped i guess you would be the king..11 years as a hyper-dispy and 15 as hyper-pret. Doesn’t exactly give you much creditability.

You still didn’t name anyone at SGP. Over 170 and not one huh Rod? And you said “ALL TRUE” ones were.

You mislead people by equating preterism with universalism or suggesting that preterism necessarily leads to universalism. That would be like me claiming futurism leads to universalism simply because some universalists are futurists. Be honest and leave the subject of universalism out of the discussion because it is irrelevant.

And now you pick and choose when to make being an arminian an issue..Isn’t your co partner a Molinist? So why make an issue of preterist that are? Just more deceit.

Roderick i would still like to know if you taught your family and friends full preteism especially your kids and how they handled you deciding you taught them error for 15 years.Or were they not surprised since you taught dispy error for 11?

Will

  Dorothy wrote @

Hi Will,

Brian is quite correct here and so are Max & Tim King. The end result of FP theology is universalism. Why do you think the emergent church is grabbing onto it? For them, it just validates their position that there is more than one way to God.

If you think the FP argument is strong, then take some time to review the universalist FP position. It just goes to show you what happens to the Gospel message when you get your timing off.

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Will,

The names Roderick gave should be enough to convince you that the Hyper-Preterist movement contains a large number of full-blown Universalists. The reason there are no universalists on the SVP site is because they won’t allow ‘em. But the whole Hyper-Pret movement seems to have had its beginnings with the American Universalists. There wouldn’t be so many universalists immersed in Hyper-Preterism if the doctrines didn’t logically point in that direction.

Brian

  Will wrote @

Dorothy,
It seems we may have posted at the same time and you didn’t see my last post.

But i will ask you anyhow.

Are there very many futurist that are also hold to universalism?

I can give you the list if you would like.

I find all kinds on “Gay Christin” groups on the internet and they ALL hold to a “Hyper_Futurist” view of eschatology.

So according to you futurism leads to homosexuality.

Now does that make sense Dorothy?

Would you be kind enough to give me the verses you have done your exegeses on that change your view? That would be a great discussion.

Respectfully
Willy

  Roderick wrote @

Will, let’s review. I said ALL true hyperpreterists are universalists. You countered that on SGP there are no universalists… Ok, logical deduction here: Then I am saying that the hyperpreterists on SGP AREN’T true hyperpreterists. See how that works? They are hyperpreterists trying to hold on to some semblance of “conservatism”. As Brian pointed out, the SGP have a rule to keep the “liberals” out — that is almost anti-logical for hyperpreterism since hyperpreterism calls for questioning everything including the credibility of 2000 years of Christian interpretation.

A friend reminded me that Kurt Simmons (one of the most honest guys in the movement) once said that anyone holding to “Covenant Eschatology” (ie Max King/Preston type hyperpreterism) is utlimately endorsing universalism. Pretty powerful comments.

As for the issue of Arminianism, YOU said that most hyperpreterists were “Sov Gracers”, I simply provided proof that your comments are UNTRUE.

May be it is time you go back & ask Frost or some of the guys who have been around longer for some fresh ammo — what you’re bringing is blanks.

p.s. What I do with my family is none of your business. Why are you going all personal? Is that all you have?

  Roderick wrote @

Will, nice little trick you are tying to play with Dorothy — she is a smart cookie & can see through your shell games. Let’s help you out again. This line of, “Well, there are universalists in Christianity too” is a nice dodge but we’re talking about ratios here.

If 1 in a million Christians are universalists compared to 1 in 10 hyperpreterists are universalists, then that is NOT the same thing.

We already provided you with a list of many LEADERS of hyperpreterism that are universalists. We provided you with a link to Todd Dennis’ excellent page that outlines how hyperpreterism logically & historically leads to universalism.

Why won’t you listen? You are duped. I feel sorry for you. I know what it is like to be duped by hyperpreterism. Dorothy knows what it is like to be duped by hyperpreterism. Brian knows what it is like to be duped by hyperpreterism. Many others now out of that cult knows what it is like to be duped by hyperpreterism. You eat, sleep, & breathe it. You see it under every rock.

Will, humble yourself & just admit you are duped & then you can begin to recover. I’m not angry with you. I feel sorry for you. Guys like Preston & Frost are duping you. I too held out for a while that if we could just make hyperpreterism more conservative then maybe it would be ok — now you see what some of these guys are trying to do to save hyperpreterism from its fate — they have to actually BAN their fellow hyperpreterists from joining their little group so that they can ward off its eventual outcome. They are like a lone outpost in the sea of TRUE, liberal-minded, universalistic hyperpreterism.

Let us know if you ever make it out of that cult.

  Will wrote @

Roderick,
You continue to contradicts yourself. You make a blanket statement that preterism leads to universalism,but you were a preterist for 15 years and never became one! I gave names of men that have been preterist for over 20 years. The largest know gathering of full preterist on the web over 170 and not one universalist!

Now you claim some kind of authority on how many preterist are universalist but give no documentation on how you got your numbers.This is not a credible argument.I took your example of SGP and showed that not one is there and you change it to some are ” trying to hold on to some semblance of “conservatism”.This is just your own disgruntled personal opinion.

I can make blanket statements that futurism leads to all the David Koresh’s and Jim Jones’s and all the gay Christian groups.Same thing your doing.

Another foot in your mouth when you claim ” hyperpreterism calls for questioning everything”
In your 15 years did you question the deity of Christ or the Inerrancy of Scriptures ?

You showed no proof that most preterist are not Sovereign Gracers,you just said they weren’t and expect that to pass. You don’t have that much creditability Roderick because every argument out of your mouth is built on ad hom’s and strawman arguments.You can get way with that kid stuff with Brian and the drones on your petty blog,but not with me.

You know Preston has written against universalism but you try to tie him to it with Kings view because he agrees with King on others things.This is more dishonesty from you Rod.

I’m still waiting for you to show your exegesis on the verses of scripture that changed your views.Lets see it’s been at lest 2 years and you haven’t provided them.Of course “SOON” to you guys could mean 2,000 yrs.

I don’t need fresh ammo Rod,you never recovered from the first shots when you realized you had been duped for 15 yrs..Must have stung after being duped for 11 before that..Sure your not just duped again Rod?

And why the personal questions? Because you have made personalities your main target.You go after and make remarks about people and their families and that makes your a target then.It’s called sleeping in the bed you made.After all if you have teaching your family and friends heresy for 26 years,maybe you should think about retirement.

Willy

PS.. You can run but you can’t hide.Sooner or latter you and all the others will have to put up or shut up with scripture Rod.Until then your all a bunch of “cultist”.

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Will,

FYI, there were at least 2 or 3 Universalists who tried to join the SVP forum, and they were politely shown the door. If it weren’t for the rigorous screening-policy, the Universalists would be running the show there.

BTW, I mentioned John Riffe in one of my previous posts, because he’s in a position to know how many of the Hyper-Pret leaders actually espouse some form of Universalism. At the Trans-Mil 2006 Conference at which Riffe was present, he heard several leaders of H.P. endorse Universalism during a dinner-table conversation. No need to give names. But I think you’d be surprised at how many of the “big guns” of the Hyper-Pret movement are actually Universalists. But they are afraid to come out of the closet about it. The very first Hyper-Preterists who ever existed were UNIVERSALISTS. You can realistically say that they invented the Hyper-Pret system. This is a fact that can easily be verified by doing a Google book-search on “Universalism” (limit it to books published between 1800-1875, and you’ll get the most results). Almost all of the materials have a HYper-Preterist slant. The current state of Hyper-Preterism only bears out the connection with Universalism. Therefore, Roderick, Dorothy, myself and others are in earnest when we warn you of the dangers of these doctrines. You have been duped by this system. Now it’s time to get vaccinated.

Brian

  Chuck wrote @

I came here looking for answers to preterism (I am a Christian who does not believe in Preterism) and all I found was a bunch of squabbling and hatred for one another. So it goes on most blogs these days. Where is the respect for one another. You know, agree to disagree? If the only point of this is to berate one another, then satan won. Nothing wrong with pointing out one another’s faults, but we must do so in a loving and respectful manner. Not feeling the love here.

Peace!

  Jason wrote @

Chuck,

Visit a site like thereignofchrist.com for preterist teaching, without all the hoopla.

Rod and Brian are nothing but slanderous, vile, liars, whose sole purpose is to destroy people.

Stay away from them. There are better “orthodox” people to hang around.

  Roderick wrote @

Yeah, wow! those comments from Jason should really make people want to run right over to his website. My sole purpose is to preach the Gospel & hyperpreterism’s sole purpose it to distort the Gospel — so I guess those purposes will collide eh?

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Are you kidding?? We’ve seen more “hoopla” at your site, Jason, than anywhere else on the net. Your above posts demonstrate what Hyper-Prets do when they can’t have their way. They throw a tantrum.

Brian

  Khoury wrote @

Hi guys. Let not thy will roar, when thy power can but whisper.
I am from Zambia and also now teach English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: “Save with coupons, deals promotions at couponmountain.”

Thank you so much for your future answers :( . Khoury.

  Sean wrote @

Brian,
I am amazed at your comments above, because it seems quite obvious that they are based on false premises. I am one full preterist who understands the difference between the “present evil age” as referred to by the NT writers, and the “age to come” that they expected to enter into when “He appeared” at “His glorious coming” at the “End of the Age”. I believe that THEY DID pass from the present world into the heavenly realm just as Christ promised them, and just as they believed and taught that they would, within that first generation from Christ’s earthly life. They entered it, but we HAVEN’T YET, because we are not in heaven yet! Although the covenant has changed and we have the down-payment, or earnest of our inheritance (the Holy Spirit which is shed abroad in our hearts – a taste of the full “age to come”), we will not experience it’s fullness (Just as the first century Christians didn’t) until we shed this earthly body – each of us in turn – and go to join our predecessors in paradise (and ONLY THEN fully experience the “age to come”).

Your article above is based on a false assumption about full preterists – that they believe they are presently experiencing the “age to come”. Most understand that although the old has passed away and new is here (covenentally), our earthly experience is no different (experientially) in ANY successive generation on this earth than it was for Paul and Peter (I.e.) during their church-planting journeys recorded in the book of Acts – we still have a physical body, a fallen nature, and spiritual darkness that we each must needs overcome as he grow and mature in Him – and for those reasons, and others like them, we need salvation just as Paul or Peter did. We need Jesus to give us His uncreated life to overcome the flesh and spiritual darkness today, and to give us eternal life to enter into the “age to come” after our physical journeys are finally done.

With humility and respect,
Sean Hyatt
biblicalbanter.blogspot.com
shyatt@qwest.com
303.523.2315
Denver, CO


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