Up Or Down? That Is The Question

  In order to maintain the view that A.D. 70 constituted a great eschatological crisis in the history of the world, Preterists have been put to strange shifts regarding the “cloud-coming” passages of the New Testament and Old.  The most notable passages they dwell on are Daniel 7: 13-14  and Matthew 24: 30.  Preterists tell us that these texts do not speak of Christ coming down to earth, but going up, and receiving His kingdom.  This view has been forward by pseudo-Gnostic commentators who have never studied the Bible systematically. 

  If their view is correct, though, we must wonder why it took Christ forty years to attain to the promised kingdom.  The mystery gets deeper if we should accept their thesis that the “kingdom” is only spiritual and heavenly, having nothing to do with dominion in the earth. The fact is, the spiritual reign of Christ was already a present reality long before the destruction of Jerusalem.

  The Rev. Alfred Bryant, a Presbyterian pastor, certainly gave the correct view when (in 1852) he wrote: “The spiritual government which Christ exercises over the people of God commenced with the first believer on earth, and has never since been intermitted, and never will be.  Over Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and the tens of thousands who died in the faith, and went home to heaven before His first advent, the Great Mediator reigned as effectually by His word and Spirit, and dwelt in them by faith and love, as over Paul, or the millions who have lived since” (Millennarian Views: With Reasons For Receiving Them, pg. 86).

  Preterists do not generally recognize that Christ had already been exalted to the highest position in the heavenlies at His ascension in A.D. 30.  A look at New Testament terminology confirms this.  For example, the term epouranios is used 5 times in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians, and in the dative plural (Eph. 1: 3; 1: 20; 2: 6; 3: 10; 6: 12).  The preposition ep means above; and so epouranios means “the heavens above” — not the limited heavens which will pass away, but the eternal heavens, where God dwells. 

   When used in the genitive case, epouranios signifies the origin from which anything proceeds.  When used in the dative case, however, it signifies locality; and so these verses tell us that Christ is now seated in the “above heavens,” exalted above the highest aristocracy of glory — not merely angels, but principalities and powers (Eph. 1: 20-22; 1 Peter 3: 22).  If we take this exaltation as having been achieved in A.D. 30, then it is clear that upon His ascension there was no place higher for Him to go. 

     By trying to make the destruction of Jerusalem an eschatological event (and by necessity an invisible one), Preterists must spiritualize the coming of Matthew 24; 30; and so they invent a surplus ascension to deal with the problem.  But Matthew 24: 30 is not talking about ascension at all.  It is referring to Christ’s arrival (parousia) as the Son of Man.

  The phrase Son of Man is used 84 times in the New Testament, and never once in the church epistles.  It occurs 80 times in the Gospels, once in the Book of Acts, once in Hebrews (where it appears as a quotation from Psalm 8) and twice in the Book of Revelation.  The term always involves Messiah’s connection with the earth; the first and last occurrences in the New Testament confirm this (Matt. 8: 20; Rev. 14: 14).  

   When Christ came the first time, He had no place on earth where to lay His head.  But when He comes the second time, upon His head will be a golden crown, and the harvest of the earth will be reaped (Rev. 14: 15-16).  This clinches the matter.  Therefore, when we read of Christ’s parousia as the Son of Man, it means His personal arrival to subdue all earthly powers and take to Himself dominion in the earth.  That is what the ”golden crown” signifies.

   Our view is substantiated in Daniel 7: 27, where it says that the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the  whole heaven (note the preposition) will be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, and all dominions will serve and obey Him.  This verse is parallel with Revelation 11: 15.  The kingdoms of this world (kosmos) become Christ’s when the 7th trumpet sounds.  And it is clear that the seventh trumpet never sounded in A.D. 70, for the kingdoms of this world were never given to Christ and His saints. 

   Now, I realize that it is humanly possible to spiritualize all this language, and insist (in the face of the evidence) that Matthew 24: 30, Daniel 7: 14, Rev. 11: 15, and other passages refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.  By the same reasoning, it is possible, I suppose, to spiritualize anything in the Bible — be it the creation account, the parting of the Red Sea, or even the Cross.  But is this dealing fairly with Scripture?  I think not.

   The fact is, that in A.D. 30 Christ ascended “up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things” (Eph. 4: 10).  The phrase “all things” is inclusive.  Christ’s session at the right Hand of the Father does not allow for any further exaltation than Christ already received when He ascended on High.  To claim that there was to be a further grade of glorification after A.D. 30 is to impugn the effects of the Cross, and to place limitations on the power that Christ received upon His resurrection and ascension (Matt. 28: 18; John 17: 1-5).  

   Our conclusion is that the cloud coming passages of Matthew 24: 30 and Daniel 7: 27 involve the subjugation of earthly enemies, by the personal return of “the Man Jesus Christ” (1 Tim. 2: 5) — and not some figurative, allegorical “ascension” which took place when the Jewish temple was destroyed in A.D. 70.

16 Comments »

  Dee wrote @

Looks like you are starting to believe it too Brian.This would explain your obsession with partial and full preterists! Do you ever talk about what you believe?

Oh yea, i forget you whole system of belief is wrapped up into the misrepresentaion of Daniel 9:27… The truth that this passage speaks of Christ,steals your ant-ichrist persecuting Israel and sitting in the temple that is yet to be re-built,does it not? What about your pre-trib, post trib or pre-wrath rapture, there is no scriptural support whatsoever…

Especially since you have to go to a Latin bible translation,to find your equivalent for the word rapture,which is not even in the original Greek manuscripts used by the translators of the version that you use.Is it? And of course your seven year tribulation… Does it not henge also or your misrepresentaion of Daniel 9:27 also …Sadly Brian you have no scriptural proof of any of what you believe,do you?Unlike partial Preterist, who have an arsenal full of scriptural proof texts,that is really what troubles you Brian,Matthew 24 is the end of your dream of midnight flight into the Heavens..

Brian, we all have scriptural proof of the fundamentals of our faith… However,your end times or eschatology is found wanting and is in need of the usual semantics and twisting of scripture to be fulfilled…

I suggest you study again what you believe,so that your disappointment will not cause you to rebel,when you do not get your way…I for one only care that i am ready according to his standards, so how ever he comes and how ever we go to be with him,does not matter to me…Can you say the same…IF no,then you should examine yourself Brian,before it is to late…

  Dee wrote @

Brian,use your Strong’s concordance and look up the word (Coming) then check the passages below and tell yourself which of these passages below,speak of the second coming of Christ…

Matthew 26:64

Matthew 16:28

Matthew 24:30

Matthew 24:37

Did you notice that you find 2 different meanings to the word (Coming) used in your concordance? They are Greek # 2064 and 3952…Do you wonder why? Good.

Now ask yourself again which passage above speaks of the second coming of Christ and which three do not…

Finally Brian,ask yourself this…Will Caiphas see the literal second coming of Christ? Brian,how ever you answer this,wether yes or no…The answer disproves what you BELIEVE concerning end-times Eschatology…

  Dee Dee Warren wrote @

Hi Brian, just so that you know, the “Dee” above is not me. Seems someone has a bit of their own obsession problem, getting in touch with their feminine side. Email me with the IP number and I can check to see if it matches any of posts on my site though I delete most of the HP garbage.

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Hello “Dee,”

I take it you’re using an alias? Well, besides using someone else’s name, it appears you’ve never taken the trouble to find out what I actually believe.

Firstly, I do not believe in a 7-year tribulation. Secondly, my views of the rapture do not line up with what you are insinuating. Third, having been a Full Preterist, I’ve studied the issues you are putting forth extensively, and concluded that there was no need for Christ to return in the first century. BTW, in Matt. 26: 64, He is speaking in the plural — “YE shall see” — and this distinction is only brought out in the King James Version, and in the original Greek. Christ was addressing the Jewish nation.

Now, unless you have smoething constructive to say, I suggest you toddle along elsewhere and bother someone else.

Brian

  Dee wrote @

No Brian, i am not using an alias or someone else’s name… It is my own nick name…Not everyone all the time uses their own name when blogging or posting comments, right?

If Christ was addressing the Jewish nation as a whole,then why did Caiphas tear his garments? And accuse the Lord of Blasphemy? Perhaps he knew what Daniel 7:13,14 teaches? And what that meant when Christ said “Ye shall see the Son of Man COMING in the clouds”… See the references in your bible Brian…Matthew 26:64 is a reference to Danial 7:13 and 14…

I have read your comments here and else where, and even listen to your podcast’s,so perhaps it is possible that i either do not know what you believe or i did misunderstand your beliefs…Sometimes people say different things on different occasions,right?

Maybe you do not believe in the seven year tribulation then,but you do believe in the anti-Christ persecuting Israel,right?And that this Antichrist comes from Daniel 9:27 right?

So i have something constructive to say now,ok? so can i stay and bother you?

Btw: i am not a full Preterist,they are heretics, and you should know,seeing that you yourself were once one of them… So let us lay that a side and look at some other things together, shall we?

What is yet future?

The great falling away (apostasy)

The coming of Christ

The resurrection (both of the just and the unjust)

And the final judgment

Brian which of these three things take place simultaneously? Surely the last three,right?

Concerning the second coming of Christ the scriptures teach these things below…

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What saying will be brought to pass Brian? See below.

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Isaiah 25:8

Brian both the Apostle Paul and the Prophet Isaiah agree on the resurrection.The Apostle Paul makes it even clearer,that it takes place at the last trump.

So then does this mean that OT saints and New Testament saints will be raised together, in the One (general) resurrection? At the coming of Christ? And Not seven or 1000 years later,but at his literal and bodily return.

Yes it would seem so.So where is the Millennial reign then? It is not there, is it?

Brian there is no place for a Millennial reign or Kingdom.Here i will show you why.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

When is death destroyed or swallowed up in victory? Is it not at his coming? So if the last enemy is destroyed at his coming,then where is the 1000 year reign?

So why do the scriptures teach that he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet?

Let us just say for the sake of argument that those of that generation who rejected him and put him to death were destroyed in 70AD along with the temple,and that consequently those who persecuted the church and put many of the saints to death,were also destroyed…

Brian this means that God gave them all a space of 40 years to repent,before the destruction of the Jerusalem and the temple…Were these not his enemies? Are they not under his feet?

Will not those who commit apostasy and persecute the church before his return,also be destroyed and by the brightness of his coming?See Thessalonians 2…

Brian,the man of sin may not be what we once believed,and perhaps what you still believe.Do some research on the (Son of perdition)

Now back to his kingdom.Christ does reign even now! He has a Kingdom,his kingdom is his church,and his dominion is that he reigns as head of /over the church.

The scriptures teach that we have already been translated into his kingdom.The scriptures teach that his dominion is everlasting,not his Kingdom.

His kingdom will never be destroyed,in that “the gates of hell “shall not prevail against his church (kingdom).

However,Brian he will deliver up his Kingdom (church) to the Father.Then he will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Who are the kings and the lords that he will reign over? The children of God Brian.Those like you and me,who are joint heirs with him.

As the Son of God,he is the first in rank of many bretheren.And as the Son of God,he to will be subject to God as well.

The Lord Jesus descended (back) into Heaven 40 days after his resurrection,see Acts 1:9.

This is when he received his Kingdom. Believers could not be (spiritually) translated into a kingdom that does not exist,right? So then this kingdom does exists and Christ reigns from Heaven,over his Kingdom.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13,14 (this is why Caiphas tore his garments)

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Colossians 1;12,13

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:4-6

Brian i will put together the judgment for you later ok, you will see that it is a general judgment (one) just like the resurrection.

Dee

  Dee wrote @

Brian before the judgment later, i wanted to leave you with this first…

Only God who is the Father, is referred to as the “Ancient of days”…

Only God who is the Father, is called the “Most high” or the “Highest”

Here are some examples,before i moved to the point of this…

Where does this take place? Surely it cannot be on Earth,right? I am speaking of the first two passages ONLY…

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.Daniel 7:9

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13

It seems that Only these two things/passages above are fulfilled,and the passages below, also of Daniel 7 are yet future…

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.Daniel 7:18

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.Daniel 7:22

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

Now let us take a look ahead…Note* these passages are only used to show who is called the Highest…

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Now finally Brian,let us take a look at the book of Revelation…This is the point….

Who is that will reign as forever? Do not forget…That Christ will deliver the Kingdom up…1 Corinthians 15:24… Is it not the Father?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Do you remember Brian, that the resurrection of the dead and the changing of those who are alive (at this time) takes place at the LAST trump? Which is at the second coming of Jesus..

So then,who is the (HE) that shall reign forever? Is it not the Father?

So i ask again Brian, where is the Millennial reign of Christ?

Dee

  Dee wrote @

Brian i have decided to add these in as well.I do not know if you are reading this or not…So i will leave you with this and go…

I anticipate that those of you who believe in the Millennial reign do in fact point to Revelation 20 for your support…So i will do the same…

The final judgment is worked into all that i say here…

The resurrection spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 is no problem for me…Perhaps it is a problem for some…

Lets see if this will help to receive it… Jesus our Savior is God in the flesh… He is the image of the invisible God… He is the Word of God… Jesus is without sin…

So for someone,anyone to suggest that his resurrection was spiritual and not Physical,is a kin to heresy and or blasphemy…(this is my opinion)

So before we move on please receive what i have just written …It is not towards you at all Brian…I have never read where you have said such a thing as this…The point had to be made is all…

Now let us talk about the New Birth…

Again Jesus is God in the Flesh…He is the image of the invisible God.He is the Word of God…He is without sin…

So there is no reason for anyone to believe that our Savior needed to be born again… Unless they are heretics of course… Are you with me so far Brian? Good.

Let’s talk about us…We are sinners,right? Jesus said to Nicodemus that unless a man ( male and female) be born again,he can not enter the Kingdom of God…

Keep in mind Nicodemus’ following question…That is right…The New birth is a spiritual birth,not a natural re-birth…

Let us talk about being translated into the Kingdom of God’s Son…Simple question…Are we there yet?

No,not physically or literally,right? Then were we translated figuratively then? No,we were and are translated spiritually,into the Kingdom of God’s Son…

So Brian if you can receive that,then this should not be a problem for you then…

The FIRST resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 is in fact it spiritual. It speaks of the New Birth… Or being born again…

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Are we not regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit,when we believe and trust Christ as Savior? Yes. And this is according to Ephesians 1:12-14…

Ok,so why is it so hard for some to believe that this is exactly what is being spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6… Do not the scriptures tell us that those who are in the FIRST resurrection are blessed and holy and that they will not be hurt by the second death?

Why? because they have been born again and saved!

Let us go a bit further…Those who have died in Christ were saved,and so they are absent from the body and present with the Lord…

So then we should not find it so hard to believe that they are in fact reigning with Christ in Heaven…

What is faith? What is hope? That the present kingdom of Christ,here on earth,does not look as such that it is said to be…

Does not FAITH and HOPE teach us that we too,are reigning in his kingdom (the church)? Do we have to see what we imagine in our hearts and what our eyes long to see?

Should we expect that we should still hope for it then? Do we walk by what he has given to us all,his word and his Spirit…

(btw: i am not a postmillennarian,i only share the same hope,due to the continuing fulfillment of the great commission)

Since there is to be a general (one) physical/bodily resurrection,why would these saints be resurrected apart from those of us who are alive today,but may not be alive at his coming?

Remember what the Apostle Paul says in Phillipians 1:21-23? History or tradition tells us that the Apostle Paul was beheaded during the reign of Nero,right?

So let us touch on this for a moment and then move quickly away from it… Although the Apostle Paul and other Martyrs of that century and beyond,are still waiting to be physically/bodily resurrected,they do live and reign with Christ,even now…

So let us talk about (the) thousand years… Does the scripture say a thousand years or does say 1000 years?

Brian,there is a difference,if you and others insist on calling it a Millennial reign…

So What is a thousand years? Is it like one day or just a very very long or extended period of time? Could it be the way that God counts time?

The point is this,we have already established that there is no place for a Millennial reign of Christ…So you must accept that he does reign now…Is that not what you have said in your very own post,albeit much more eloquently than i…

Quote ” Christ’s session at the right Hand of the Father does not allow for any further exaltation than Christ already received when He ascended on High”. End quote…

So i will ask again,do you still believe that there is yet a Millennial reign? Ok,answer this then…

Can any of these saints be hurt by the second death? What is the second death? Does it not take place at the judgment? Is it not when death and hell are cast into the lake of Fire?

What does Revelation 20:15 state? See it below…

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Is this not (Gehenna)?

Last question Brian…Why does the passage say “WHOSOEVER” is not found written in the book? I will tell you simply… It is because it is a general (one) judgment of ALL the living and of those who have been brought out of Hades to face the final judgment…

So then,this means that believers and unbelievers alike who are alive at his coming, will in fact stand in the same judgment…

Those saints that are with him,and have been found worthy to sit upon thrones,will indeed judge the twelve tribes of Israel and possibly Rome for the persecution of the saints (of that generation that is)

Brian they will judge in that they are witnesses, because it is they who have given their very own lives for their testimony in which they held…

There is one more phrase or passage that we should deal with… See it below…

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Revelation 20:5a

Brian,until Jesus returns the rest of the dead, those who are not with him,are they who are in Hades…

For they have died in their sins and are separated from God even now…This is why they are called the rest of the dead…

They were not born again and so they are unsaved…They are not called blessed and holy,are they?

So a thousand years certainly does have to not mean 1000 years…For the Lord Jesus returned to Heaven nearly 2000 years ago…

The White throne..The judgment seat of Christ..And the throne of his glory are all one and the same…

This is what the Apostle Paul speaks about this in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and Romans 14:10… It is what is spoken of in Revelation 11:18…

And finally Brian,it is the separation of the sheep from the goats…Matthew 25:31-46… Only the sheep will enter the Kingdom that has been prepared for them,from the foundation of the world right?

Jesus has been given the power to execute judgment…And so he will… Brian all of these things (perhaps even the rapture is possible), the resurrection and the judgment take place BEFORE, he delivers up the Kingdom to the Father…

Would Jesus deliver up a less than perfect Kingdom to God his Father? Again,Christ will reign as King and Lord …

Do you remember who the kings and lords are? They are children of God…They are joint heirs of the Kingdom with God’s Son…

Brian it is the Father’s Eternal Kingdom that is everlasting…Christ is the first in Rank (the Prince) of the Kingdom,the elder of these/us his many bretheren, (hence) King of kings and Lord of lords…

His coming.The resurrection.And the final judgment take place simultaneously…They are not separated by time…God promised a short work upon the earth…And there you have it…

Now Brian we have work to do,so let us be about the Father’s business and win souls for his kingdom… Onward with the great Commission… And most of all holiness,onto the coming of the Lord Jesus…

Ps.this is not personal,all of what i have sent to you is pre written and saved,only the names and particular beliefs are added…You were the first,however…

Dee

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Hi Dee,

Thanks for the input. However, I have no interest in debating eschatology with you. I have already explained what I believe. If you disagree, you are free to do so. But you’ll have to move on to another forum.

As I’ve said, I have already investigated these subjects, and reached my present conclusions through a process of prolonged study. In my view, there is no debate. It is simply a difference of opinion.

Brian

  Dee Dee Warren wrote @

Good call Brian. Sometimes you just have to do that. To be honest, I read Dee’s posts over and over and can’t figure out what he is on about at all.

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Hi Dee Dee,

Well, neither can I! Hopefully he/she will go elsewhere. After all, there are plenty of people out there to debate with.

Peace & Health,

Brian

  Dee wrote @

Hi Brian

I would have thought that you would have been able to at least talk about your dispensational Pre-mill position…

From your post above i see that you do not even bother to check your own scriptural references,you just toss things out there,not expecting anyone to check them out…How can you fight the good fight without checking your own sword?

However,i should have known based on your podcast interview with the Orange mailman…It seems that you only live to attack the Full Preterist Heretics..

To bad to too… I think that my being a PARTIAL PRETERIST and a Amillennarian…Who holds to the second coming of Jesus.The resurrection and the final judgment would have not been to difficult for you…And i do believe that all Israel will be saved…Just not the way that you believe it…

You see Brian you could not figure out what i believe (was about) because you try to put one label on everyone and place them into the same FULL PRETERIST Heretical box…I do not fit into that box… Btw the way,i am a she…

So take care then Brian…I will not bother you anymore…

Take care then BTW it is she…

  Dee Dee Warren wrote @

Dee, I am an orthodox preterist, and you are babbling even to me. So you are being unfair to Brian saying he isn’t willing to discuss things. If you simply aren’t making sense, he has no obligation to spend hours trying to decipher your point. You and I allegedly have the same POV, and I can’t figure out what you are on about either. So Brian is not to be faulted here. You need to learn to communicate better.

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Dee,

This has nothing to do with my not being willing to talk about my position, or to “fight the food fight.” I simply don’t feel like arguing with anyone.

There are numerous discussion forums out there where these views can be hashed out with experienced debaters. CARM is one of them. TheologyWeb (Dee Dee Warren’s site) is another. There are also a few others I know of, but these are the main ones.

Actually, I have chosen to spend very little time debating. My main business is to combat the heresy of Hyper-Preterism.

Brian

  Dee wrote @

Brian

I appreciate the response…

This is my fault ,i approached you the wrong way from the start…I did not really want a debate,rather i believe that we all can learn from those whom we disagree with…

I started with an attack against you..so i should not expect that you would want to talk about what you believe and why…

I know there are many sites out there,but i do not wish to talk to hyper,or full preterists…I like to talk to dispensationalists, Pre-mills and Post-mills…Simply because I learn from them…

I think that they are heretics (full Preterist i mean)… Brian,i think that you believe that Partial Preterist are the same and we are not..

I was once a Premillennial dispensationalist as you are now…However,on studying the scriptures further,on my own,i saw that this position does not line up with what is written… Nevertheless, the second coming of Jesus, the resurrection and jugment hold true for me even now,and will always hold true…The scriptures teach these things without a doubt…

I think that even Darren,(the orange mail) man was trying to tell you that partial and full Preterist are not the same…

Again this is my fault…I understand now that this is what you do here,battle hyper Preterism which is a good thing…

So in that Brian keep up the good work then..and take care…

Dee

  Dee wrote @

last comment i promise Brian..

This is for Dee Dee…

I did learn something here today after all…To keep it short and piffy and to the point… Babbling (ouch!) though i would have to agree with you… I should have just asked Brian why does he believe in the Millennial reign of Christ, when there is so much scriptural evidence against it..

It is true Dee Dee no one could have figured out my point through all the stuff that i wrote…So thanks for pointing that out to me…

Dee…

  Brian Simmons wrote @

Hi Dee,

Well, that’s fair enough. Thankfully, Christians don’t always have to agree with each other. There are some issues on which the Orange Mailman and I would differ. For example, he is a historic Pre-Millennialist, whereas I am more of a classic old-school Dispensationalist. But that doesn’t break our fellowship.

I certainly understand your stance on Dispensationalism. Having been strongly anti-Dispensational myself, I know exactly where you are coming from. However, you’ll have to take my word for it, that I’ve studied these issues in detail. After embracing Hyper-Preterism for 1 1/2 years, I left that system and went through 2 or 3 major doctrinal changes before I came to where I am now.

The reason I embraced a Dispensational eschatology is because (to my mind) it satisfactorily addressed issues that conventional futurism couldn’t. I am talking about things like “audience relevance,” “time texts,” and other elements that Preterist theology integrates.

At any rate, what I am trying to say is that I did not just stumble into this position unwittingly, but embraced it only after prolonged systematic study of the Word of God. I am fully aware of the other theological options available. However, after making my investigations, this is where I stand.

Brian


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