Here is an interesting chart (click to enlarge) which may serve as a commentary on the “colossus” seen in Nebuchadnzezzar’s dream (see Dan. 2), and explained by the prophet Daniel. Based on a chronological scheme which takes into account the various “Lo-Ammi” periods, during which the years of Israel’s national history are omitted from the lifetime of the world, this pictorial chart shows the downward progress of Gentile dominion, from the reign of Nebuchadezzar until the “kingdoms of this world (kosmos) become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ” (Rev. 11: 15).
G.W. Whitaker– The Image Of Daniel 2 (Dispensational Chart)
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Mike Bull wrote @
Brian
The image was a new Gentile Tabernacle, within which the Jews were to serve as prophets and priests.
I think the “intermarried” iron and clay refers to the harlotry of Herodian worship with the Roman state. This theme of intermarriage goes right back to Genesis 6.
Interestingly, this makes Herod’s Jew-Gentile church a first century rival to Paul’s.
As Joseph, Samson and Solomon showed, there is both godly and ungodly intermarriage. The godly variety brings the Gentile bride into the Covenant on the Covenant’s terms.
This also means that the altar stone that wiped out the image is the kingdom Christ received at His ascension, though it was fully inaugurated in AD70. With the destruction of Herod’s Temple, the role of the empire as a “house” for God’s people was no longer necessary. Note that the Roman protection of the Jews shifts to Roman protection of the church throughout the book of Acts – until Satan steers Rome against the church in the 60’s. Jewish persecution and false doctrine failed, so he raises a new beast out of the Sea.
That’s how I read it, anyway. No gaps.
Brian Simmons wrote @
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your comments. I believe, though, that the idea of a “gap” is purely subjective. The mystery of the present dispensation, where Jews and Gentiles are made “one new man” — a joint body — was “hushed in times eonian,” and so to look for it in the Old Testament is silly. If God hides, who can find??
According to my understanding, Genesis 6 is about the fallen angels. The legs of iron does denote the Roman empire. However, the feet of iron and clay describe a future reconstitution of the empire, under “The Prince.” We see this already starting to happen with the formation of the European union, and ongoing efforts to bring about a “one world” religion and state.
When the mystery of the Body of Christ is completed, the saints will receive their “calling on high,” and the last heptad of Daniel’s 70 will begin, during which time Israel will be tried and tested, and at the end, purified as gold! The temple descibed in Ezekiel 40-48 will have its fulfillment during the Millennium, when Israel holds supremacy once more. They will be priests of God, who will evangelize the nations.
Honestly, I find this kind of language hard to take in any allegorical sense. The prophecies concerning Christ’s first coming were very detailed, and yet they were literally fulfilled. Since there is no distinction in the O.T. Scriptures between the “first coming” and “second coming,” prophecies relative to the latter should not be read according to a different canon of interpretation. This is just a matter of maintaining a consistent hermeneutical method. It is based, not on the whim of each interpreter, but on established Biblical precedence.
Peace & Health,
Brian
Mike Bull wrote @
Brian
You know what? I agree with everything you said, except it all happened in the first century.
Mind the gap. ; )
prestonleigh wrote @
Interpretation of the prophecies need to be literal. God made promises to the nation of Israel that can only be fulfilled by Israel. Daniel’s Prophecy of 70 Weeks was made with Israel, eternal in nature, and can only be fulfilled by Israel. The church was not revealed in the Old Testament. Daniel’s 70 was dealing only with Israel and made no mention of the church. Daniel’s 70 prophesied that the Temple would be destroy after the Messiah was cut off. Daniel’s 70 also says this people would be the people out of which the Beast would arise during the 70th week. The church was established according to Ephesians so that in the ages to come in eternity we would be displaying His grace. Heavenly are our promises where Israel’s promises are earthly.
Mike Bull wrote @
Hi Preston
I will try to answer your disputes one by one.
- Interpretation of the prophecies need to be literal.
I understand where you are coming from. But we need to read the Old Testament the way the apostles did.
- God made promises to the nation of Israel that can only be fulfilled by Israel.
They were fulfilled by Israel in the first century. Jesus brought a sword that cut Israel in two like a sacrifice, then revived it by the inclusion of Gentiles. Just like in the book of Ruth.
Daniel’s Prophecy of 70 Weeks was made with Israel, eternal in nature, and can only be fulfilled by Israel.
- It was fulfilled in the first century, upon Israel. The sacrilege that makes desolate can only be committed by God’s priests. The desolation comes after the sacrilege. Jesus forgave them for killing Him, but when the unbelieving Jews started slaughtering Christians, the end was truly nigh.
- The church was not revealed in the Old Testament.
Jesus said that Moses and the prophets spoke of those days in the first century. This has to be the biggest assumption dispensationalism makes, and it is foundational to your system.
Daniel’s 70 was dealing only with Israel and made no mention of the church.
- The final week was fulfilled upon Israel. Jesus forgave them and it was postponed for one generation (although we do see the centre of worship move from Jerusalem and the death of Herod at the end of the week). The glory departed – it was the fire-filled saints of Pentecost. But the final week was repeated in the 60’s. This time, it was saints that were slaughtered in the middle of the week (Rev. 14). And this time, it did bring the end of the Old Covenant economy. We see the same ‘one generation’ postponement when Israel’s lack of faith meant they would not enter God’s rest in Canaan – hence the warnings in the book of Hebrews.
- Daniel’s 70 prophesied that the Temple would be destroy after the Messiah was cut off. Daniel’s 70 also says this people would be the people out of which the Beast would arise during the 70th week. The church was established according to Ephesians so that in the ages to come in eternity we would be displaying His grace. Heavenly are our promises where Israel’s promises are earthly.
Abraham was promised a heavenly country. You story does not align with the New Testament Scriptures. Even the OT saints understood that their rites were symbolic, that the sacrificial animals were symbols of an Isaac to come.
God bless you.
Mike Bull wrote @
Dear Brian and Preston
I’ve expanded this into a post here:
http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2009/08/05/the-end-of-shadows/
You mightn’t find it convincing, but it might still be interesting.
Mike
Brian Simmons wrote @
We appreciate your input, Mike. However, your interpretation has grave flaws. Christ references the AOD as the sign that will trigger the Great Tribulation (see Matt. 24: 15-21). So His interpretation demands that the AOD be placed in an eschatological context. No mere historical application or precursive fulfillment will do.
Furthermore, Christ identifies the AOD as the same one spoken of by the prophet Daniel. Words could not be more explicit to this effect. Daniel already referenced the AOD in Dan. 9: 27; 11: 31; 12: 11. According to Christ Himself, fulfillment of these texts were all future when He issued His Olivet Discourse. They are still future today.
Of course, you may claim that these passages were fulfilled by Antiochus. But that creates difficulty when you try to use Dan. 12: 1 as a proof-text for your first-century Tribulation. The man in linen tells Daniel that “AT THAT TIME” there will be a time of trouble. At what time? Obviously, at the time mentioned in Dan. 11: 31-45. Here is where Preterism breaks down. If I recall, James Jordan requires 3-4 “kings” to fill the role of the “wilfull king” who sets up the abomination of desolation in Dan. 11: 31. The text itself speaks of a SINGLE KING, and to import a succession of individuals into this passage creates confusion — plus it ignores Christ’s eschatological placement of the AOD. Jordan can’t exegete the text, and so he tries to pick the lock.
It’s sad to see this kind of behavior. One would think that Reformed theologians, in light of their hundreds of conflicting interpretations of passages like this, would give literal hermeneutics another chance. If you guys could agree among yourselves, that would be one thing. But when each person’s interpretation differs radically from everyone else’s, Reformed people shouldn’t be offended if we treat their views with suspicion.
I already know what Preston believes, and I never even spoke to him. He knows what I believe. We believe what the Bible says. That’s easy. I’ve learned that one who adopts the consistent literal hermeneutic does not need a calling card.
BTW, Mike, just to let you know that I’m still mulling over your book. I plan on writing a post or two on some of the points you raise, but don’t want it to be nothing but criticism. You’ve also made some keen observations, and I want to bring this out as well. I would say that our main differences is a hermenutical one — though I dare say we both agree on the literality of prohecies concerning our Lord’s first advent. Now if we could just agree on the other half, things wouldn’t look so bad after all.
Peace & Health,
Brian
prestonleigh wrote @
I try to understand the different methods of interpretation. But I don’t see how scripture can be interpreted by any other method than literal. Allegorical, historical, etc methods of interpretation simply are not consistent in their findings.
Scripture is very clear that God made covenants with Israel. He promised to give them a land and that Jesus would reign over them from the throne of David. Forever. How has this been fulfilled? The Word tells us that a leader out of Rome will sit on the throne of David, in the temple and declare himself as God. When has this been fulfilled? Israel’s promises are earthly and the churches as heavenly. Scripture says we are joint heirs of Christ. The interpretation that Israel was cut in two then revived by the inclusion of Gentiles is difficult for me to appreciate. Salvation during this time of the church is by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ and repentance from our sins. This makes us joint heirs with Christ. Neither being a Jew nor a Gentile has any bearing on salvation during this time. Jews were born into a covenant relationship with God, which is temporarily set aside while salvation is not open to all, but the Jewish covenant relationship will be resumed and fulfilled after the church has be taken in the rapture. Israel will be prepared during the 70th week for their Messiah. In unbelief now Israel through the 70th week will be made ready and experience of a national conversion to receive Jesus at the second advent. There are not any historical nor allegorical references that can replace a literal interpretation of these scriptures.
prestonleigh wrote @
“while salvation is not open to all” – I meant to say “while salvation is now open to all”
Brian Simmons wrote @
Amen, brother. You are absolutely right. Throughout the ages, Satan’s goal has always been to distort the meaning of God’s word.
“Did God REALLY say that?? Or did He mean something else????”
Our only defense is to stand on the literal interpretation of God’s word, knowing that He says what He means and means what He says.
Peace & Health,
Brian
Preston Leigh wrote @
Dan,
You have an extensive understanding of bible prophecy. We adhere to the same method of interpretation. Feel free to check out my blog and give me your critique. There is access to a commentary that I wrote on Revelation. It is copyright but I am still adding information. Love to hear your feedback if you are led by the Lord to do so. Hopefully it will be edited and published soon. My email is prestonleigh@ymail.com
Brian Simmons wrote @
Hi Preston,
Thanks for sending me that link! I like your blog, and will definitely be saying something about it soon.
As for my interpretation of Matthew 24: 34-35:
I hold that ‘this generation’ (the nation of Israel) will not ‘pass away’ (receive a new heart and new spirit – 2 Corinthians 5: 17) until all of Christ’s prophecies are literally fulfilled. Heaven and earth will pass away. But God’s promise to preserve Israel as a nation (see Jeremiah 31: 35-37) will never pass away.
Peace & Health,
Brian
Preston Leigh wrote @
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the information. I was asking about Matthew 23:34:35. What is your interpretation of this scripture. Speaking to or predicting events of future church or Israel?
Brian Simmons wrote @
Hi Preston,
I believe that matt. 23: 34-35 is talking about the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. The scribes and Pharisees paid for the blood of the righteous shed from Abel to Zecharias. But Zecharias was martyred before the “Times of The Gentiles” began. So Matt. 23: 34-35 only covers the period before the Babylonian captivity.
Mystery Babylon will pay for the blood of all the righteous shed during the “Times of the Gentiles.” I believe Mystery Babylon is apostate Christianity headed by papal Rome. When the kingdom of Christ smashes the image to pieces (Dan. 2: 44), Antichrist will be destroyed, and all will be fulfilled.
Peace & Health,
Brian
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Praise the Lord. You certainly are faithful to your ministry of bible prophecy. God bless you.